BTC Private ROW/pave for buses?

[HwyHaulier]

Jules -

Exactly! And, why the "kid stuff" source you noted is without any credibility at all! Or, as the college professor explained: Cite it as a source, and it is a guarantee of "F" for the semester! See the Cashier's Office is you wish to withdraw from the course...


.......................Vern.................

[JULES KAYE]

Hi, Vern: Makes ya kind of wonder where these people get thier "reliable" statistics..... Seriously, as you and I both know, that, when it comes to discussing the many ills of postwar mass transit, things can....and DO...often get quite complex. BUT......it ALL boils down to this in the end...mass transit was simply IN A DOWNWARD SPIRAL in the postwar years!! As we've already discussed, many factors were responsible for this. Just because a bus, streetcar, subway, or commuter train is jam-packed during the AM and PM rush hours, does not mean that the operating agency is in the black and then some! It's all about economics and demographics, folks! Jules

[JULES KAYE]

....just HAD to post these two shots!! Just imagine this coach in BTC green! http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?10981 http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?10979

[1940LaSalle]

1940LaSalle: Came across this in my files; this one's for you...... http://www.davesrailpix.com/pw/htm/pw126.htm

Interesting shot. There are some companion shots of that same vehicle in Ronald de Graw's book "The Red Arrow", with operation on the Norristown line. As you might suspect, nothing ever came of the concept.

[1940LaSalle]

Here's a classic image of Ardmore Junction in the "all-electric" era: http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?16733

Judging from the quality of the color photography and the presence of the St. Louis car on the right, along with a motor vehicle or two in the background, guessing this was taken about 1950.

[1940LaSalle]

Here are two more long-ago views of BTC streetcar operation on private ROW: http://www.davesrailpix.com/btc/htm/btc199.htm http://www.davesrailpix.com/btc/htm/btc145.htm

That shot of a car on route 26 is not labeled correctly: by 16 October 1958, rail service had been extinct for about a month and a half (it ended on 31 August 1958). Judging by the looks of things (the greenness of the weeds and so on), I'd guess more like May of that year.

[JULES KAYE]

Hey, 1940LaSalle: Glad you enjoyed the pics! This discussion just called to mind a circa 1960-artist's rendition (in my copy of "BUSES, TROLLEYS, AND TRAMS", by Chas. S. Dubar); this interesting picture depics an "automatically-guided bus-train fror Chicago". It shows a "train" of three CTA Fageol-Twin Coaches operting via a fixed guideway on an expressway.

The text states: ".....the CTA hopes to use self-guided bus-trains on the Southwest Expressway. Individual buses on outer suburban routes would assemble at the motorway and be coupled together for the trip into downtown, so that only one driver would be required for several coaches on the motorway portion of the route. The reverse would hold true for the outbound runs. Originally, the CTA thought of fitting the mediam strip of the motorway with a guide rail to ensure a correct path for the trailing buses, but, it is now considered possible to guide the bus-trains electronically, and also stop and start them through equipment on the buses picking up signals from cables buried underground."

Can you imagine if this had become a reality? Certainly sounds like something right out of the 1964/65 New York Worl's Fair!! Ahhhhh, what novel concepts once abounded in the mass transit sector....if only on the drawing boards!! Jules

[JULES KAYE]

Here are two circa-1980's photos that 1940LaSalle should be interested in; they depict a SEPTA Flx New Look operating on the Ardmore Busway. As the venerable New looks have now been gone from SEPTA's roster for years, these pictures themselves are "historic" in nature! How time flies! http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?56658 http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?56661

[JULES KAYE]

This line obviously featured VERY private ROW!! This long-ago scene showing elderly Semi #5748 (operating on an NRHS excurision) is certainly more country-like than urban!! I'm sure the cars must have made good time on this stretch, finding themselves free of any encounter with vehcular traffic!! This sure must have made for a beautiful, colorful ride in the fall........ http://www.davesrailpix.com/btc/htm/btc032.htm

[HwyHaulier]

This line obviously featured VERY private ROW!! This long-ago scene showing elderly Semi #5748 (operating on an NRHS excurision) is certainly more country-like than urban!! I'm sure the cars must have made good time on this stretch, finding themselves free of any encounter with vehcular traffic!! This sure must have made for a beautiful, colorful ride in the fall........ http://www.davesrailpix.com/btc/htm/btc032.htm

Jules -

And, so, you make the point of the futility of PRW lines! This stretch of, "...VERY private ROW!! ..." had a conspicuous lack of much ridership. The project went from one of great promise and potential utility, to "...it seemed like a good idea at the time...", and all downhill past there! The hapless operator couldn't get out from under it in the duration. Tax bills, upkeep and repair, and other costs kept coming in, and had to be paid...

It poses an example of one of the dilemmas posed on bumper stickers. What if it was all PRW and no one rode it?

...................Vern................

[JULES KAYE]

Hi, Vern: Right you are! Recall, if you will, the sad saga of the oncce-proud NYW&B, running from the Bronx to White Plains, from 1912 until 1938. It was thought that this high-speed electric line was going to spur a massive real estate boom in Westchester (which, of course, happened after WW2, far too late too save the line). Stations were massive and commodious, built like monuments, with cavernous passenger and baggage facilities to handle the massive throngs they invisioned.

Huge, high-speed MU cars were constructed, swift and comfortable, and equipped with center doors, to better handle the expected crowds of riders. Freight service was virtually an afterthought. BUT....because the line terminated at 180th St. in the Bronx, NYW&B commuters had to transfer to the subway/el, for their trip into Manhattan. NYC and NH riders travelled straight into GCT. By 1937, the line was abandoned, and was never revived. Only the short section in the Bronx was brought back to life, as the "Dyre Avenue Line", utilizing surplus wooden L cars (circa 1940)

In late years, this "orphan" line was eventually tied into the IRT main line, making through service possible. The reason I'm mentioning this is because it truly personifies that misaligned statement we hear all too often: "Build it and they'll come!" Well, as we can see here, that SURELY was NOT the case with the NYW&B!!

Same thing can be said for many "semi-rural" trolley lines, that had thier hubs in busy downtowns. Just because the line is there does NOT mean great crowds will be availing themselves to the service! And...iF you replace the cars with BUSES.....pave over the ROW....and operated an exclusive busway....it STILL does NOT mean that ridership will sudenly surge upwards, and that all will be sunshine and lollipops! It just AIN'T gonna happen, pal!! Jules

[JULES KAYE]

Back in the Monumental City, we are treated to some speedy private ROW action along the #20, back in 1947: http://www.davesrailpix.com/btc/htm/btc143.htm

[HwyHaulier]

Jules -

Maybe the lesson of the NYW&B ought to be impressed upon all the current day, all too eager (and full of crap) planning types. The NYW&B a classic that "...if you build it, they will come..." simply does not work! Once again, the concept made for a cute movie about baseball...

Compare BTCo System Maps with the piece of line for which you locate photos. The little piece or PRW on Route #20 (nee #10) was a non event, and spanned but a few city blocks. Speedy didn't much matter...

......................Vern................

[JULES KAYE]

Man!! Talk about being "out in the sticks"!! Sure don't see much potential ridership, here!! And no BUSWAY was gonna change THAT pretty picture!! http://www.davesrailpix.com/btc/htm/btc151.htm

[HwyHaulier]

Jules -

"BUSWAY" conversion of PRW held by "private sector" operators always a foolish idea that was out of touch with reality...

The only possible way to explain Red Arrow - Ardmore was the possibility the PA PUC was up to its usual intractable and unreasonable positions on most anything. For example, in the instance: Silly demands that, upon conversion, demands any service must literally and faithfully follow earlier routing. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that is how it really happened...

...................Vern...............